Me: Many of Rutherford and Russell's false predictions were calculated based on alignment and measurement of ancient Egyptian pyramids relying in essence on the powers of the occult.
Reslight2: The study of God's Stone Witness in Egypt (not "ancient Egyptian pyramids" [plural]) as a verfication of the Bible has nothing at all to do relying on the essence of the power of the occult. Russell did not rely at all on the "powers of the occult".
Me: You are greatly mistaken in this regard. Much of what Russell relied upon, whether he knew it or not, or acknowledged it in writing, was the power of the occult and demonism. You base your disclaimer on a narrow interpretation of "occult." However, even a contemporary dictionary such as the Random House College Dictionary interprets the term broadly, defining it as: "2. Secret, disclosed or communicated only to the initiated. 3. Of or pertaining to magic, astrology, and other alleged sciences claiming use or knowledge of secret, mysterious, or supernatutal agencies; the supernatural or supernatural agencies and affairs considered as a whole.
In light of this definition Russell's activities were derived squarely from the occult as they involve a pseudo-science and he relied on the dark powers of the supernatural, not the powers of God Almighty, to arrive at his false conclusions. We know that such reliance on measuring the Great Pyramid of Jeezeh is Satanic in origin because those measurements were used to predict the coming Kingdom in 1874, and later in 1914. As both of those dates have been proven to be false prophecies, and false prophets are not from God, your statement that "Russell did not rely at all on the "powers of the occult"" is simply not true. Even Rutherford stated in 1928 that the pyramid is "Satan's Bible, and not God's stone witness." (Watchtower 1928 Nov 15 p.344). And because these occultist teachings lingered well into the 1920s it is impossible for Jesus, who returned allegedly in 1914, to have chosen the JWs as the only true and approved religion in 1919. It is impossible.
For your convenience, JWfacts.com has gone into great detail and provides original scans of the 1891 and 1911 editions of Thy Kingdom Come which you can find here:
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/davinci-freemason.php
jonathan dough
JoinedPosts by jonathan dough
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79
Do you think Witnesses would drink the "Cool-Aid" if told to do so...like Jonestown?
by Witness 007 injonestown 1970's, jim jones brainwashed his 900 member cult into committing mass suicide by drinking cyanide cool-aid.
only three escaped.
{the smart ones} one man hid under a building....another escaped into the jungle while armed guards dragged another member to get injected by force.
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jonathan dough
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The GB Knew What They Were Doing
by compound complex ini believe that the governing body knew very well what would be the consequences of publishing the above article on apostates.
they carefully word every article, not only for the faithful, but for the unfaithful, and for those who have never believed our faith.
the above article and the comments here show me their great wisdom, because they have achieved exactly what they wanted.
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jonathan dough
Yes, they want the attention, the outrageous reaction and the persecution. Just like they wanted shock-and-awe responses to their blood-tranfusion ban. Think of the millions they have now reached with this publicity, and possible converts.
http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/child_custody_jehovahs_witnesses.html
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Help me to answer a few questions for a current JW?
by stillstuckcruz ini'm talking to this girl right now who is technically still a witness.
she doenst go to the meetings anymore but not because she does not feel its the truth.
her parents are no longer witnesses and i want to get her to see the truth about the "truth" before she decides to go back in.
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jonathan dough
jahovahtruthtoday, I don't understand your questions and can't tell which side you are taking.
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I finally lost respect for the New World Bible Translation
by Quarterback inthat paragraph in last week's watchtower was sure an eye opener for me, and i have spoken with many friends in the congregation about it as well.. we are not pleased with that rendering , "mentally deseased", in that verse in timothy.
they are calling my very close family member who has da herself that name.
just because doehe/she doesn't agree with all of the org teachings.. it is also an abuse of power from those sitting in a corporation to sanction this evil, hate comment.
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jonathan dough
The Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation Bible, of which there are over 100 million copies circling the globe, continues to come under intense criticism by respected Bible scholars the world over. Although the Watchtower Society boasts of a handful of defenders, the vast majority of Bible scholars are vehement in denouncing the New World Translation Bible as a horrific distortion of God's word claiming it is false and misleading, and crafted for the sole purpose of promoting the Jehovah's Witnesses' unorthodox theories.
A careful examination of the New World Translation Bible reveals this to be true. It is unfortunate that many potential converts' initial exposure to a Bible of any kind is the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation, never suspecting that liberties to such a great degree could be taken by God-fearing people. Consequently, they too often give the Watchtower Society and their New World Translation Bible the benefit of the doubt until it is too late. As it turns out, the Jehovah's Witnesses really do have their own Bible as alleged, and it is a radical departure from Holy Scripture.
Critics decry their Bible as being written, or mistranslated, by non-Greek speaking pseudo-scholars, totally unqualified to translate the Greek into any language. This criticism is robust and extensive. Here are just a few examples of how they have altered God's word:
Whereas the great majority of Bibles interpret John 1:1 as "...the Word was God," the New World Translation claims the "Word was a god," thereby denying the deity of Christ. Collosians 1:17 provides that the Word was "before all things" and therefore could not have been created but is eternal, but the New World Translation inserts the word "other" to allow room for the Word's creation and inferiority to God, stating that the Word was "before all [other] things." Throughout the New Testament of the New World Translation, the word "Lord" is changed to "Jehovah" despite the tetragrammaton YHWH not existing in any of the known 5,000 original manuscript texts. The word "in" is changed to "in union with" so that Christ is not actually within the Christian, thereby denying the indwelling. Christ's identifying himself as the I AM and deity is changed to "I have been" at John 8:58.
The list goes on. The New World Translation Bible's voluminous mistranslations are extensive and profoundly alter the very definition of Christianity. It is the primary tool employed to turn mainstream Christianity upside down and invert 2,000 years of Bible truths. And it is no wonder that respected critics of the New World Translation Bible refer to selected portions of their works as "a shocking mistranslation," "obsolete and incorrect," and "an abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar." Bible students are cautioned in relying solely on the New World Translation Bible and should seriously consider cross-referencing it with reputable texts. Better yet, discard the New World Translation altogether and get a real Bible. Reliable Christian texts are abundant.http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/new_world_translation_bible_holy_scriptures.html
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Help me to answer a few questions for a current JW?
by stillstuckcruz ini'm talking to this girl right now who is technically still a witness.
she doenst go to the meetings anymore but not because she does not feel its the truth.
her parents are no longer witnesses and i want to get her to see the truth about the "truth" before she decides to go back in.
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jonathan dough
What other group do you know that goes preaching from door to door on the same scale as JW's? The bibe says to preach to every land(bla bla bla). Jehovahs Witnesses are the only group doing that on such a scale. this proves they are the truth.
The JWs assume that Jesus sending out disciples in pairs door-to-door to the Jews alone is the manner in which the truth was to be spread. Web sites are devoted to debunking this notion. Furthermore, if going door-to-door is a sign of being the only true Christians then they must share that role with Mormons. Furthermore, it assumes no other method of spreading the word is acceptable, but that is silly. Television, radio, the Internet, publications, standing on street corners, CHURCH, all these methods of spreading the word are legitimate and useful. JWs make false assumptions about them being the only ones spreading the word because they have stuck their heads in the sand and have fallen for the lie that they alone are preaching the gospel. But preached it is, far and wide, and on a much larger scale than the JWs. Comparatively speaking, JWs don't hold a candle to the preaching work done by Christendom. If they really wanted to spread the word and not just recruit cult members they would be on the radio, on television, etc. Knocking on doors is not "proof" of anything. Whether their teachings are correct is the proof. Whether they are producing accurate fruit is the proof. Whether they actually follow the true teachings of the Bible is the proof of the truth. And because they are wrong about virtually everything in their teachings and application of Scripture, all the door-knocking is pointless and will ultimately find them in disfavor with the Lord. Not all are teachers, not all are apostles, not all are prophets, and no, that doesn't apply only to the 144,000.
Why are all the annointed ONLY in the JW religion? (I used to wonder the same thing until I did research)
This is a false assumption. All true Christian believers are anointed. She needs to get over this 144,000 deception. She can start here:
http://www.144000.110mb.com/index.html -
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Help me to answer a few questions for a current JW?
by stillstuckcruz ini'm talking to this girl right now who is technically still a witness.
she doenst go to the meetings anymore but not because she does not feel its the truth.
her parents are no longer witnesses and i want to get her to see the truth about the "truth" before she decides to go back in.
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jonathan dough
Jehovah wants his people to be united right? So why should we not disfellowship those who have a difference of opinion? That only creates disuniuty! JW's are the only people who are entirely united on the Earth. Worldly churches can even agree on their own teachings.
No one is claiming they don't have the legal right to disfellowship their believers who chose to disagree; Catholics excommunicate, other faiths excommunicate. And there is far less disunity among Christendom than they claim. On core doctrine even Catholics and Protestants have much in common. The reformed churches did not abandon all of Catholicism and the teachings of the church. The kind of unity the Bible speaks of does not dictate a rigid, robot-like, thoughtless conformity. In fact, scripture encourgages discourse, instructing us to test all things, to root out false teachers. Again, this position assumes the JWs are united in the truth, but if it is not the truth, which it is not, then their unity is pointless. It becomes, and is, a dangerous cult. Furthermore, due to the tremendous amount of changes to JW doctrine they can't claim to be united in their teachings since each generation over the past 150 years has seen a different version of the truth. Today's generation has a completely different version of the "truth" from the Russell generation. JWs are far from united. -
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Help me to answer a few questions for a current JW?
by stillstuckcruz ini'm talking to this girl right now who is technically still a witness.
she doenst go to the meetings anymore but not because she does not feel its the truth.
her parents are no longer witnesses and i want to get her to see the truth about the "truth" before she decides to go back in.
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jonathan dough
Jehovah want's people to gain accurate knowlege right? So where do they gain this knowledge if they are not JW's?
An accurate bible, but not the NWT. University libraries packed to the ceiling with religious treatises. The public library and Christian dictionaries and encyclopedias. The radio and sermons by such notables as Dr. Stanley, Alister Begg, Pastor Mike, David Jeremiah, Pastor Swindal. This question begs the question: does the WBTS provide accurate knowledge? She is assuming it's accurate. Information with respect to the accuracy of the NWT bible can be found here:
http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/new_world_translation_bible_holy_scriptures.html
Here are some other online resources she can use:
http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/jehovahs_witnesses_research_resources.html
The first and biggest deception perpetuated by the Society is that no one can understand Scripture without their explanation, reading it through their glasses. The JWs assume they alone have accurate knowledge, but that's the issue: Who has accurate knowledge? We know they are wrong about 607, the Trinity doctrine, the alleged 144,000 anointed, their occult past, their false prophecies, the blood prohibition and just about everything else. -
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"Mentally diseased" article to be published in The Independent tomorrow
by cedars inhi everyone.
as a parting gift to you all before i take a much needed break from this forum, i thought you would be pleased to know that the independent, a leading uk newspaper, will be publishing a piece on the "mentally diseased" watchtower article in tomorrow's edition.. i would like to thank everybody who has assisted the journalist, jerome taylor, in his investigation.. best wishes to all of you,.
cedars.
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jonathan dough
Don't we call JWs mentally diseased all the time? Or worse? So what's the big deal?
http://www.144000.110mb.com/directory/jehovahs_witnesses_directory_beliefs.html
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Can we make a list? What does the WT really teach me about Jesus?
by Fernando injesus is not my mediator..
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jonathan dough
They teach incorrectly that the preincarnate Word was created, not eternal, not God the Son, but a created angel. That Jesus on earth was just a man, nothing more. That he is mediator of the New Covenant which is temporary, not eternal, and is soon to expire, and applies only to the so-called 144,000 anointed JWs. They claim the Second of Coming of Christ occurred invisibly in 1914. They teach that Jesus is, and was, not God, the God-man which is the hypostatic union.
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Question about 607/587
by drewcoul ini am not an expert on this issue.
i have read and re-read information about it, but i guess i am somewhat dense when it comes to this topic.. my question is simple: the watchtower suggests that they believe the bible is the unerring word or god.
that it must be believed above anything else.
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jonathan dough
My question, more simply put, is: What is the WTS stated reasoning for 587 not being consistent with the bible? How is 587 actually consistent with what the Bible says?
The issue should really be whether Jerusalem was destroyed in 607, which it was not, and whether the Jews served Babylon for exactly 70 years, which they did not. Historical and archeological evidence, mountains of it, support Jerusalem's destruction in 587/586. The JWs' focus on proving or disproving 587 is a smoke screen distracting from their monumental weaknesses because if Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 then their crucial 1914 date is another false prohecy and their entire theological foundation crumbles.
Here's an overview of the controversy
For those unfamiliar with the issues, a very brief historical overview is in order. We are basically dealing with events that span roughly 125 years, from 625 B.C.E. to 500 B.C.E. It includes the end, or fall, of the Assyrian Empire to Babylon in 609 B.C.E. followed by the rise and subsequent end, or fall, of the Neo-Babylonian Empire (Babylonian Empire) which lasted seventy years, followed by the rise and early years of the combined empires of the Persians and Medes which ended Babylon’s reign in October 539 B.C.E.
We are especially concerned with the Jews of Jerusalem and Judah during this time who were caught between these rising and falling empires, particularly the seventy-year period defined here as the Babylonian Empire. These Jews would come to serve Babylon in various capacities, as did all the surrounding nations that fell under the dominion of the Babylonians, or Chaldeans.
There were numerous Babylonian kings during this era, beginning with Nabopolassar who presided over the final demise of Assyria in 609 B.C.E., followed by his son Nebuchadnezzar (or Nebuchadrezzar), the great warrior king who consolidated the empire through numerous military campaigns. It was Nebuchadnezzar who enslaved the Jews, forced them to become vassals, dispersed them to other nations, exiled them to Babylon and annihilated or devastated Jerusalem and Judah. The end of the Babylon Empire was presided over by Nabonidus who was then king, though his son Belshazzer was co-ruler of Babylon when the Persians and Medes conquered them in October 539 B.C.E.
Our attention is basically focused on three Jewish kings:
a) Jehoiakim: He ruled eleven years, and had been in power when Nebuchadnezzar ruled in his first year as king of Babylon. Jehoiakim became a vassal to Babylon in his eighth year, rebelled against Babylon, and depending upon which Bible one reads, and other factors, was exiled to Babylon with other Jews (2 Kings 24:1-4).
b) Jehoiachin (also called Jeconiah): His reign replaced Jehoiakim's but lasted only three months at which time he, and 10,000 others - all of Jerusalem - were exiled to Babylon roughly 800 miles away (2 Kings 24:8 - 17).
c) Zedekiah: He replaced Jehoiachin, ruled eleven years, became a vassal to Babylon early on, and steadfastly rebelled against Nebuchadnezzar who then utterly destroyed Jerusalem and Judah in Zedekiah’s eleventh year; he either slaughtered, dispersed or exiled the remaining Jews to Babylon. The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe this destruction of Jerusalem occurred in 607 B.C.E., while everyone else for the most part agrees it occurred in 587/6 B.C.E. See generally Jeremiah chapters 24 and 25.
After the Persians and Medes conquered Babylon in 539 B.C.E. the Jews were set free and roughly 50,000 of them returned home to Judah in the fall of 537 B.C.E.The Jehovah’s Witnesses' task of proving that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E. and not 587/6 B.C.E. is no easy feat in light of strong archeological, historical and scriptural evidence to the contrary. Notwithstanding this uphill battle, the Jehovah’s Witnesses have gone to elaborate lengths to rationalize their position, regrettably causing a dizzying smoke-screen of complexity when the answers and issues, as will be detailed below, are relatively simple and straightforward as the Almighty intended them to be - in order to reach as many people as possible.
At the heart of the controversy is a seventy-year prophetic period of time. The Jehovah’s Witnesses simply count backward seventy years from the fall of 537 B.C.E., the year Jews returned to Judah after being exiled to Babylon, to arrive at 607 B.C.E. Therefore, they reason, Jerusalem must have been destroyed in 607 B.C.E.
The problem is that they have completely misinterpreted and misapplied the prophecy at Jeremiah 25:11 and accompanying verses because they desperately need 607 B.C.E. in order to arrive at 1914. An abbreviated form of this seventy-year prophecy, unfortunately taken out of context, and reproduced in the article Setting the Record Straight - a fierce and very comprehensive defense of the Jehovah’s Witnesses' pro-607 stance - provides:The word that occurred to Jeremiah . . . concerning all the people of Judah and concerning all the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . . all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years. —Jeremiah 25:1a, 2, 11.
According to Setting the Record Straight this prophecy has two parts equal in length, both parts beginning and ending at exactly the same time:
A) The land of Judah, and Jerusalem, would be devastated and remain so without a single inhabitant exactly seventy years commencing with Jerusalem’s destruction and not before, and this period of devastation ended seventy years later only when the exiled Jews physically returned to their homeland Judah from Babylon in 537 B.C.E. The opposing view is that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E. and the period of complete devastation lasted only 48 - 50 years.
B) All exiled Jews that fell within the scope of the prophecy were removed at Jerusalem’s destruction, and not before, and remained as exiles serving Babylon a full seventy years until their actual return to Judah in 537 B.C.E. Again, the opposing view is that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/6 B.C.E. and those exiles removed at that time to Babylon served only 48 - 50 years in captivity.
It should be pointed out that should either prong of this composite two-prong approach fail, the entire prophecy, or their version of it, fails.
As such, we are essentially dealing with two primary areas of interest related to a) when Judah’s devastation began and ended, and the extent of that devastation, and b) when servitude to the king of Babylon began and ended, what servitude meant, and to whom it applied. Saving the Record Straight frames the Jehovah’s Witnesses' position as follows:While some critics argue that Jeremiah 25:11 only refers to seventy years of servitude, Daniel 9:2 confirms that the prophecy also entailed seventy years of devastation for the land of Judah. Second Chronicles 36:20, 21 further shows that it was the composite effect of exiling the remaining ones who “came to be servants to [Nebuchadnezzar]” and the resulting devastation and desolation of the land of Judah that began to fulfill the prophecy concerning the seventy years.
The Watchtower Society in its publication Let Your Kingdom Come and elsewhere confirms that the seventy-year period ended only upon the Jews’ return to Judah, and not before.
The 70 years expired when Cyrus the Great, in his first year, released the Jews and they returned to their homeland. (Chronicles 36:17 - 23)
The Bible prophecy does not allow for the application of the 70-year period to any time other than that between the desolation of Judah, accompanying Jerusalem's destruction, and the return of the Jewish exiles to their homeland as a result of Cyrus' decree," - Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1, p. 463.This paper begins with an analysis of the underlying issues presented by the phrase a) “and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years” (servitude), followed by a discussion of issues pertaining to the phrase b) "all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment” (devastation).